The Divide - So ContraPoints Is "Cancelled"

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  • Published on Sep 8, 2019
  • There's a big Divide in the trans community that Natalie Wynne aka Contrapoints drew attention to her in her tweets this week. So let's break it down...
    Other perspectives:
    * "Why I Don't Like Explaining My Pronouns" by Kat Blaque -ruclip.com/video/oyO9sjWKhqg/video.html
    * How "pronouns are bad" hurts nonbinary people - JuliaSerano/status/1169776115679805440
    * Why this shouldn't be framed as binary vs. nonbinary - AnaMardoll/status/1168651696609943553
    * A discourse breakdown by Luxander - ruclip.com/video/vNLNzgbvG_w/video.html
    * A nonbinary perspective by K Korviday - ruclip.com/video/AP6MBuqhM4s/video.html
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Comments • 297

  • Theo Hendrie
    Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +15

    What's your perspective on this? Do you want people to ask for your pronouns or do you prefer it when people assume your gender?

    • John Valverde
      John Valverde Month ago

      As a cis gay male, I really am not bothered by having to say "he/his" all the time to make other people feel considered. It's about everybody, not just me.

    • christine ramsay
      christine ramsay Month ago

      Who uses gender pronouns to someone's face?

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      L4SERB0Y I’m cis I’m fine with it xx

  • Karen Kordes
    Karen Kordes 12 days ago

    I find this person quite delightful: ruclip.com/video/Lj4V-Nme86U/video.html

  • zionlittle96
    zionlittle96 12 days ago

    THIS is nuanced and so good love this

  • Manubibi Walsh
    Manubibi Walsh Month ago +3

    I'm not trans so my perspective is not all that valuable, but I feel like your video does it right. I don't actually know what being trans is like, however I know compassion is universal. And I really like how you put yourself in her shoes and tried imagining what this feels like on her end instead of just prioritizing your own way of feeling.
    As for me, I understand both sides. Again, I'm not trans so I can't really speak for anyone here, but this seems like a complex issue and not a matter of good or bad. It just seems to me like nb and binary trans people are just trying to live and share spaces as comfortably as possible, and maybe Natalie didn't foresee that her platform was wide and shiny enough that any of her words would be dissected like this. Anyhow, the way you addressed it is the right direction as far as I can tell. I just wish all debates were like this, because honestly I don't like seeing minorities fight each other. I'm queer myself, and I believe we should all help each other out and elevate one another, and if conflict arises we should address it like this. Drama won't help.

  • D P
    D P Month ago

    Please explain to me why NB people want to be defined as trans. To me trans is a person who transitions or has transitioned from 1 sex to the other. NB people are not transitioning, they are what they are. I hope my comment is not disrespectful, I'm just trying to understand

    • stillnotstill
      stillnotstill 12 days ago

      D P Some trans people don't transition socially or physically. A more accurate definition is that a trans person is not the gender they were assigned at birth. Nonbinary people weren't assigned nonbinary at birth so they fit that.
      Some nonbinary people transition, also.

  • Bite Hunter
    Bite Hunter Month ago

    Living as a successful transgender and transsexual means to be accepted as gender-accepted correctly.
    People who are experiencing turbulence in transgender living due to not fully living as the adopted gender must understand that if you want to live as the assumed gender, then look and act like it.
    If a male to female wants to be identified as female, be kind enough to not go out to McDonald’s with an eight o’clock shadow wearing men’s clothing, with 44-D over-the-shoulder boulder holders under a mechanic’s shirt. #LookLikeAWoman

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  Month ago

      it's not up to you to decide what success and happiness looks like for every trans person. kindly shut up!

  • TheGamer 118
    TheGamer 118 Month ago +1

    Riddle me this, if gender isn t an aesthetic, then how come you can both have gender comforming trans and gender non comforming trans ? Why is there a felt distinction, how can one pass as a women and the other not pass as one when gender isn t an aesthetic, when it isn t "you walk the walk, you talk the talk" why is there even a problem in all of this
    Riddle me this, if trans people have different wants and needs then how can one talk for and represent the transgender community as a whole, if what you end up talking about can be contradictory to a few people for different reasons altogether. If what you teach about the trans community to a wide audience can become false information because it ends up in conflict to many different communities of trans people then what even is the point of this video or any videos of trans people in general.

    There is no solution because no voices have any weight, nothing you say or someone else might say have any weight or punch at all because there is no standard there is no direction if there can be so many contradictory goals, you can t simply have it all because "people have different wants and needs" it s all fucking crazy it never ends
    The worst part is that everyone wants their needs to be realised NOW RIGHT UFKCING NOW, everyone wants that at the same time so it s literally become a horse race where all is fair in love and war, everyone is stumbling on each other everyone is attacking each other everyone is at odds with each other

  • Tanya Kasafir
    Tanya Kasafir Month ago

    If you have to explain you're a woman....says it all.

  • Hobo Boxcarro
    Hobo Boxcarro Month ago +1

    You young Transsexuals are foolish immature twits! I was in TG Program & became female in 1985. This stupid bull shit of Pronouns and such is 'Deliberately Manufactured by Christian Right Wing Haters to Destroy You and Me Too!
    None of this shit is even a reality of Life as a Daily Women.
    Your Sucking In Negative Shit like a Bottom Feeding Catfish, stop Believing that Everyone that Looks twice at you, often they Like what they See, your Paranoia Shit Polluted brain sends you Wrong Message.
    After 1985-2019 all these years I have had often been "Called Out Of My Gender" and I smile and Wink.
    Try that^^ get over your Destructive Stupid Self Hatred. You are as Real as You Allow Yourself to be.

    • Joanna-Carol Lee
      Joanna-Carol Lee Month ago

      You young Transsexuals are foolish immature twits! I was in TG Program
      & became female in 1985. This stupid bull shit of Pronouns and such
      is 'Deliberately Manufactured by Christian Right Wing Haters to Destroy
      You and Me Too!
      None of this shit is even a reality of Life as a Daily Women.
      Your Sucking In Negative Shit like a Bottom Feeding Catfish, stop
      Believing that Everyone that Looks twice at you, often they Like what
      they See, your Paranoia Shit Polluted brain sends you Wrong Message.
      After 1985-2019 all these years I have had often been "Called Out Of My
      Gender" and I smile and Wink.
      Try that^^ get over your Destructive Stupid Self Hatred. You are as Real
      as You Allow Yourself to be.

  • doc 68w
    doc 68w Month ago

    You missed the whole fucking part where she said she was the only transwoman in a room full of ciswomen and the pronouns were done for performative woke points because she was in the room.

  • Mark Kraulis
    Mark Kraulis Month ago

    Being asked your pronouns, and feeling validated because you are Trans NB, or, feeling invalidated, when Trans binary, because you feel you don't pass as your gender.

  • Jasie Becknell
    Jasie Becknell Month ago

    I don’t care if she’s upset about having to explain her pronouns. I look like a woman. I do not pass. I do not want to pass 100% because I like my long hair and I like feminine clothing. My pronouns are still he/him. I’m still a man. If having to say “these are my pronouns” instead of having your gender assumed “hurts” you, have no fear! I’m hurt 10x worse by people assuming my pronouns and if you can’t deal, learn to or leave.

  • Lissie
    Lissie 2 months ago +1

    Honestly I don’t think the general public will accommodate non-binary people until this whole cancel culture thing blows over. A select group of people are destroying the whole movement, which kind of shows me that their motives aren’t altruistic.

  • Boy Freitag
    Boy Freitag 2 months ago

    jesus fucking christ.... you blue haired narcissists are making this shit WAYYY TOO COMPLICATED! NONE FUCKING CARES!

  • Allison Hart
    Allison Hart 2 months ago +1

    hi cool peeps! this seems like a good place to ask this question so...
    if i'm FAAB, present femme, and don't have (much) dysphoria...can i still identify as agender? or does that make me a shitty trender?
    i ask because i have never felt like "a woman" at all. i feel more like a...bump on a log nonentity with eyeball sockets and various holes that process sensory information.
    but it seems that many people, including some people in the trans community (understandably), don't like the idea of a FAAB presenting femme or a MAAB presenting masc...and then that person identifying as anything other than cis.
    especially if the person doesn't have (enough) dysphoria, or pursue medical reassignment.
    but if it makes sense, i feel deep inside like my "gender" is the walking embodiment of VHS static. the pronouns she / her make me feel nauseated. but sometimes i feel like i don't have the "right" to even request they/them, because i must be an attention-seeking cis woman, because i have no receipts to prove i'm not. (i don't identify as trans because i feel like that would be somehow disrespectful to binary trans folks, but i know some enby people do identify as trans)
    does anyone else have this issue, or know anyone that does? is there a name for it besides "asshole who is clearly faking it"? in an ideal world for me, i would explain that no matter how i look, i'm UNfemale and UNmale. and would go by they / them and nobody would question it. and that i shouldn't have to change how i look, because i shouldn't have to DESIRE TO change how i look, in order to be accepted as the agender person i already am...?
    sorry for blahblahblahing but would LOVE if anyone has a similar story and wants to chat...because it seems like it would actually be a not-totally-uncommon place under the umbrella...

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +3

      Hello! I'm really glad you asked this - you can absolutely 100% be nonbinary or agender and still present femme or masc regardless of what your assigned gender is. I know many AFAB nonbinary people who love their long hair, or playing with make up or wearing dresses - anyone of any gender can be into those things or dressing that way (it's cool!) so it doesn't matter what your assigned gender is.
      You don't need to experience dysphoria to be trans. Many people experience euphoria about having their correct pronouns used - so one thing that helped me when I wasn't sure was getting friends to use they for me. And that felt awesome so that helped me figure it out! There's no harm in experimenting to see what makes you happy.
      But also: things like feeling nauseous about she/her and feeling so unmale and unfemale are actually dysphoria. You might not experience body dysphoria but it sounds to me like you do experience social dysphoria.
      Presentation can be complicated for agender people anyway because everything in society is so gendered. So its up to you how want to deal with that and what makes you happy. If being femme makes you happy, then keep being femme. They/them pronouns make you happy? Use them!
      Basically what I want you to know is that you 100% count, you are not alone in feeling this way, and there's nothing wrong with the way you feel. If you feel like part of this community, the labels are yours to claim and anyone who says you can't is insecure about themself. You can't invade the community or take up space because there isn't a limited number of spaces, we have room for everyone.
      If you want to talk more or ask questions you're more than welcome to message me on Twitter or Tumblr, my username on both is @genderpunksap and I'd love to help. Good luck 💙

    • Sana Burton
      Sana Burton 2 months ago +1

      Presentation isn't tied to gender for everyone, at least not in the sense of things like clothing, hair, etc. I'm nonbinary, more male than female, AFAB, and wear mostly "female" clothing, because it's typically more interesting and because I find the idea of gendering fabric ridiculous. When you say that she/her pronouns make you feel nauseated, that's dysphoria. You're allowed to identify as whatever you identify as. Gender honestly isn't really a single, coherent concept in a lot of ways, so just do whatever makes you comfortable.

  • vicky-jane gooding
    vicky-jane gooding 2 months ago +2

    While Natalie pointed out she was uncomfortable she did also say that it was "a minor expense" so she is saying its OK its not an issue its a minor expense... so why has everyone piled all over her? i thinks it's sad that people hook onto a message to divide us when we are together.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago

      That's what this video is about! That's why it's titled The Divide 💙

  • Mr. & Mrs Smith
    Mr. & Mrs Smith 2 months ago

    Continued...
    Congratulations, what an accomplishment.
    Someone should have taught your generation about PICKING YOUR BATTLES. And just basic decency. I don’t want to know ANYONE’S intimate feelings about their sexuality (or struggles with such) if I’m meeting them in a social or work context where sex isn’t even appropriate to discuss, let alone the fact that its clear I’m not a potential mate.
    Its SO EGOCENTRIC its just annoying. Be a butch female or a feminine male- and change on the daily if thats how you feel. That’s fine, whatever, sorry you missed the majority of the struggle for equality and have to find some other way distinguish yourself- but no one cares... until you start annoying them with this stupidity, then we care, but only insofar as holding a negative opinion of you because you feel like your sexuality and stupid effing PRONOUNS needs a place in every introduction.
    Natalie was right. Point blank. And you “non-binary” kids need to stop being so ridiculously self-centered that you think this stupid “battle”has anything to so with respect or equality when its just about... you. And sorry to burst your bubble, but coworkers, acquaintances and people who barely know you- AGAIN- DON’T CARE OR NEED TO KNOW how you feel about your sexuality, gender, or body parts.
    Present how you want to be addressed. And if you expect to be addressed by inaccurate pronouns that express plurality or an “other” while clearly not trying or wanting to be the opposite of your biological sex- know that almost everyone else find its insufferable. People have real problems in life. And LGBT people had REAL battles. And you acting like goddamned PRONOUNS are in any way equal to those just make you look like a fool and you with ABSOLUTELY CRINGE 10 years from now when you have grown up and blue hair means something totally different than you think it foes now.
    Imagine what life would be like if everyone announced their (apparently at the time) biggest personal struggles immediately upon meeting them and expected everyone to give a shit. 🙄
    We have words- ADJECTIVES- to be combined with those oh-so-important pronouns- that describe what you feel like you are already.
    And all you are doing is making life harder for yourself and every non-cis person- by whining about it and- yes! Christ on a cracker! play the VICTIM- when you refuse to use the language that ALREADY EXISTS that ACCURATELY DESCRIBES YOU just because you NEED a problem in your life to garner attention and feel special.
    Pronouns aren’t a problem, slurs are. Your personal feelings about your genitalia or sexual attraction or the ENGLISH LANGUAGE are just that- YOURS. And worse than anything else- most people have actual problems that only WORDS won’t “fix”.
    You, and others like you, are
    so incredibly out of touch with REAL PROBLEMS that you create your own then demand everyone else recognize them as serious problems equal to those that people don’t have a CHOICE of getting “offended” by because being “offended” is actually a CHOICE, unlike being ACTUALLY persecuted, harassed and denied equal rights was.
    You and yours are why the pendulum has swung back so far to the right. You want special treatment, not equality. You want everyone else- with their own REAL problems like healthcare and chronic illness, access to mental health services, and employment discrimination, etc. to pretend that your PRONOUN PREFERENCES are on the same level.
    Sorry, but they just aren’t and NEVER WILL BE. Now move on and do something useful with your life instead of just expecting everyone to find your mere existence worthy of special consideration because you don’t... what? Feel a complete connection to the WORDS she/her or him/his?
    We ALL exist with labels that accurately describe us but we don’t like- like overweight, obese, working poor, mentally ill, disabled (for some), or even just “average”- which by definition is MOST PEOPLE.
    And yet we get up every day and go about our lives without the need to announce our “preferences” to everyone, and certainly without expecting everyone else to conform to what we WISH the world was like.
    I’d like to be called, genuinely seen, and considered to be the epitome of beauty by everyone I meet. My life is one of substantial childhood sexual abuse and literally crippling chronic illness as an adult...
    But why the F would I tell that to everyone I meet and expect them to care when I barely know them and have no idea what their own problems are. How arrogant. And how humiliating and cringe worthy. Get a real friend or therapist or anything else than what you were doing right now that is only fueling the stereotype of “snowflakes” who expect reality to conform to them instead of them excepting reality and learning to live with its rules. Especially when those rules don’t deprive you of any rights that other people, cis gendered or heterosexual people, enjoy.
    You are not asking for equality, you are asking for special treatment.
    And you are only harming
    yourself AND many others by your juvenile and self-centered views and lack of appropriate boundaries.
    Your absurd expectations only throw fuel kn the fire the Ridiculous Right has been building since Roe v. Wade and then Marriage Equality. Its selfish and stupid and most of the rest of of us “alphabet people” HATE it because we know our actual RIGHTS- not WORDS, PRONOUNS- are not guaranteed and can still be revoked and reversed under the right circumstances- something you imbeciles just take for granted in your ingratitude and ignorance.
    So announce your stupid “pronoun preferences” to everyone you meet if you need to do badly- juts know that none of us need to actually KNOW it as much as you need to share it.
    And don’t act like a victim when someone feels too ridiculous misusing the language they have known and spoken properly their whole lives and just... CAN’T refer to you as “they/them/ze/zed/ alien or whatever else you make up to feel special.
    Equality is a social responsibility, making everyone feel feel special for existing just isn’t- that’s a personal responsibility.

  • Mr. & Mrs Smith
    Mr. & Mrs Smith 2 months ago +1

    And again, NO ONE ELSE- straight, gay, by or even most trans people- feel compelled to announce details of their sexuality the way many non-binary people do in EVERY situation even when its totally irrelevant and no one is being insensitive or unkind by referring to you as the biological gender you ARE and are not trying to present any other way.
    I’m with Natalie here. Its just stupid. I, as a bisexual female, would be off-put and find it offensive if I was expected to explain my sexuality by announcing my pronouns in a normal social situation when I’m CLEARLY female. I can only imagine its far worse for someone suffering from gender dysphoria who has gone through all the pains of first living in a body that felt wrong and THEN ALSO had to make the hard, often rough and painful decision (not to mention extremely expensive decision) to start transitioning and living their lives as the opposite biological sex .
    How humiliating it must feel, and likely annoying AF, with so much effort, pain and money expended to “present” as the gender you know you are.... only to have a bunch of “hyper-woke” 🤣 people basically ask you what PRONOUNS you prefer despite clearly presenting and hoping to “pass” as much as possible as the opposite of your biological or assigned sex at birth.
    I’ll call you whatever you want, but it won’t mean anything to me. And of you ask, or expect me announce, what my effing “pronouns” are despite clearly being female I would be VERY OFFENDED. Like, what, are my tits and ass and hair and makeup confusing for some reason? Do you think I’d be showing a little cleavage (or, oppositely, be clearly trying to hide my chest, growing facial hair from HRT, etc.) if I was uncomfortable being seen as female or desiring to be seen as male?
    Read the room. Unless its a situation where you are meeting other singles for the purposes of dating or just casual intimate relationships- NO ONE CARES OR NEEDS TO KNOW your personal feelings about your sexuality or gender.
    NO ONE ELSE announces that stuff to strangers or acquaintances where its irrelevant.
    Choosing to die on the “pronoun” hill is ridiculous. We should all just be satisfied with the freedom to live and love how we feel most authentically (i hate that word but whatever). Expecting others who barely know you to care about how you feel about your “gender identity” when it has zero bearing anymore on your ability to live, live and marry however you want is just stupid and pretentious.
    If being “non-binary” isn’t something that causes you suffering from which you need help and resources to overcome, why would you bring it up when introducing yourself? Again, gay, lesbian, bi, etc people don’t do that because the majority of the time it’s irrelevant and just... weird.
    If you so desperately need to feel special then DO SOMETHING that sets you apart instead of just choosing to be a martyr on the stupid pronoun hill.
    I can’t stand Blair White, but I have to agree with her when she said that today’s “non-binary” people are just last decade’s emo kids.
    Get over it. The LGBt people of the last couple generations did the hard work so well that in most places in the US NO ONE CARES who you want to sleep with or what “label” you do or don’t feel like describes you.
    To put it simply- if you are a bio female or male, and aren’t trying to present as something else, and maybe just dress androgynously, expect people to address you (if they need to at all) by your bio sex. And get over it. Its not offensive or meant as such and you know it. And when that’s clear and you still CHOOSE to be “offended” or feel compelled to basically demand they mangle the english language for your juvenile and inconsequential personal feelings about your private sexual identity or preferences- now in its WAAAAY over-myriad forms- literally from Alien to Z- you just give fuel to the right’s derision of everyone who isn’t hetero and cis.

  • Mr. & Mrs Smith
    Mr. & Mrs Smith 2 months ago +1

    I’m sorry, I support people loving and living however they want as long as they aren’t hurting someone else. And if I met you and you feel the need to announce your “preferred pronouns” the truth is I won’t think twice about using them because it costs me nothing and is just polite, but I’ll feel stupid using them and, sorry, but also think you don’t have enough going on in your life if you think you need to or should tell everyone, including strangers you just met or acquaintances you barely know, this private an honestly inconsequential detail (to people who don’t and won’t ever know you as an actual irl friend or lover) about yourself.
    In situations where YOU KNOW that OTHERS KNOW you are a biological female and you aren’t trans, transitioning, or wanting to transition... and someone calls you she/her... you know they aren’t trying to be offensive or even being passively insensitive. You are a biological female, with no gender dysphoria who just doesn’t feel... what exactly? Like the label “female” describes you because you aren’t super feminine? Or do some days you wake up feeing like a guy and others a girl? (That’s not sarcasm... I know how it feels to NOT know how you’ll feel from day to day in a certain headspace and I’ve never heard an explanation from a “non-binary” person (not to be confused with genuinely intersex people) why PRONOUNS are the hill you so many are choosing to die on.
    I have thought long and hard about this and it seems like a lot of people overthinking, and over-focusing on their sexuality as their primary defining aspect of their identity.... and expecting everyone else to do the same.
    Not only are you asking us to use the English language improperly but... its just weird. I’ve never met a lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender person who feels the need to announce their sexual or gender preferences upon meeting them, or ever. If you know them long enough you just pick up on it or one day meet their significant other and are like, oh, ok, you’re gay. Moving on.
    Because everyone but this small group of “non-binary” people were just wanting equality, and for their gender or sexuality to NOT matter in how they were judged and perceived. They just wanted to be seen as normal people who want the same things- love, marriage, families, whatever- as cis people who enjoy those things without obstruction or harassment.
    It also feels like a huge disservice to the LGBT people who came before, often risking their own physical safety and their LIVES, to gain EQUALITY in basic human rights like marriage, adoption, employment protections etc.
    They did the bulk of the hard work and now you all are, lets just be blunt, making a mockery of it by thinking you should announce you’re stupid “pronoun” preference. I think primary school English teachers are the only ones who who see any positive in this attention being paid to “pronouns”. Every one else, including MOST LGBT people (and many Q’s... which is what I thought the word “queer” was “taken back” for- to be the term for everyone else who had mixed feelings about their gender or sexuality that didn’t totally fit into a cis or LGBT box was for). Cont...

  • putting wings on words
    putting wings on words 2 months ago +1

    I'm late watching it but just wanted to say this is a great video! I love the systematic and nuanced approach.
    Personally I prefer if people ask for pronouns, because I use they/them and when people don't ask, they usually just use she/her. It feels validating to be asked. Even better would be if people were to introduce themselves with their pronouns, so I can then decide to do the same without being put on the spot with a question.

  • Christina M
    Christina M 2 months ago

    Maybe the best solution is to just not use pronouns. Just say “you” and use the persons given name. Or non-binary people could take some initiative and say what their pronouns are when going places where they could possibly be misgendered, I know not every non-binary might be comfortable doing that. It’s not the norm to ask people for their pronouns because the vast majority are okay with what people assume is their gender. It would take so much time to ask literally every person their pronouns and a lot of people won’t like being asked that question.

  • Christina King
    Christina King 2 months ago +2

    This is actually the best video I’ve seen explaining the topic and is actually my first time seeing you. Unlike just about every other video I’ve seen it doesn’t seem to be skewed one way or the other due to bias and it really does help a lot. Also I like your plants a bunch

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      Thank you!! I do my best to see the nuance in most situations (and they're my boyfriend's plants but that will make him very happy!) 💙

  • Nelson Smith
    Nelson Smith 2 months ago +3

    The idea that some divides have no solution that is going to make both sides satisfied is a fact of life, and has to be a part of any discourse. This is where the term "compromise" comes in. People love saying " . . . aren't a monolith", and then proceed to construct an argument as if they are.

  • Joey Humble
    Joey Humble 2 months ago +2

    Thank you for your video. I find the find non-binary grammar very baffling, can you help by answering a few simple questions?
    1. If I refer to you in the third person using your pronoun, should I say "They are..." or "They is..." ?
    2. Many languages have gendered adjectives, for instance, in french one might say "Vous etes beau" refering to a male or "Vous etes belle" refering to a female. Should french speakers refer to you by the male or female adjectives or do you have new nonbinary adjectives to add to their language?
    Please answer my questions, I would very much appreciate it.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +2

      I'm actually just filming a video on using they them pronouns so that might help! But in answer to your questions:
      1. You say "they are" even though you're only talking about one person. It's the same as how "you" can refer to one person or a whole group but either way you say "you are" not "you is" so treat it the same as that!
      2. Honestly, I don't know! I don't speak any other languages so you might be better off asking a French person! Personally, I would prefer neutral language where possible and if it isn't, I'd prefer masculine usage to feminine usage.

  • Benjamin Martins
    Benjamin Martins 2 months ago

    Actually it’s super fucking triggering to be asked your pronouns as a passing trans person

  • Rosie Rosie
    Rosie Rosie 2 months ago +3

    I am a gay female and my wife dresses male and has masculine traits but not trans..we went out and someone asked my wife and me for our pronouns..a young girl and she was very polite about and it was done very private and offered her pronouns..they ..my wife lost it..it was very triggering for her.. When I talked to her about it..her response was that it was very embarrassing for her to ask her for her pronouns..she felt it was envasive and felt it is no one's business to ask her that..she felt that if someone missed gendered her she will correct them nicely and its done there. So please do not go around asking for pronouns..cause not everyone wants to be asked and the response you get might not be the best..when my wife lost it on her and asked her "what the f×ck do you think they are..you dumb b....!"..yeah be careful and respect people's privacy..my wife does not ever get upset when she has been misgenedered..it was the envasive question that triggered her.

    • agent argent
      agent argent 2 months ago +1

      @Theo Hendrie I am sorry, it wasn't in reference to you mentioning the abusive delivery, it was because I felt like you were dismissive of how being asked pronouns effectively triggered a lifetime of experience this person had themselves with being misgendered.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago

      @agent argent it doesn't trump other marginalised experiences at all and I'm very confused how you got that from a reply of me saying "hey yelling abuse and swear words at someone for asking a question isnt okay"

    • agent argent
      agent argent 2 months ago +1

      @Theo Hendrie I am confused why the non binary experience trumps other marginalised groups experiencing gender, it all seems so academic.

    • Christina M
      Christina M 2 months ago +2

      I get it. She was being treated differently because of the way she looks and having that pointed out constantly is annoying af. The implication was “you don’t look like a woman.” And if you’re a woman that can be distressing.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      Uhhh your wife screaming abuse at a young girl for asking a polite question is not the fault of the girl who asked. Your wife needs to sort out her anger issues frankly. Your pronouns aren't a private thing or something invasive either - if the girl had asked "what are you?" Or "what's your gender?" That would be invasive. Pronouns are literally just the words we refer to each other with, all day every day.

  • Asdfg Asdfg
    Asdfg Asdfg 2 months ago +29

    All she said was just that it was kind of ironic, that transinclusive spaces sometimes make her feel less welcome than a space where (according to the prejudices of many progressives) everyone would be bigotted and uneducated... which it is. Ironic I mean. Let’s find the comedy in the darkness;)
    Nice channel, keep up the good work and thanks for nuance. I hate screamin at eachother on the internet❤️❤️❤️

  • Alison Hudson
    Alison Hudson 2 months ago +2

    What you call a "minor discomfort" for binary trans people may not be so minor if it triggers dysphoria while they are in a self-harming mindset.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      @Alison Hudson I don't think that's the case at all. Some nonbinary people have been transmisogynstic in response to all this and I have condemned them. But the vast majority have only asked for the same recognition of their gender as anyone else wants. And the ONLY way we can get that is through people asking for our pronouns. This isn't us throwing a fit over nothing. It's the difference between getting to live as ourselves or being permanently misgendered.

    • Alison Hudson
      Alison Hudson 2 months ago +4

      @Theo Hendrie And our dysphoria is not less important than nonbinary peoples. But that's the stance that many nonbinary trans folk are taking.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      And what about the dysphoria that is triggered all day every day for nonbinary people when we are misgendered? I describe it as minor only because being asked for your pronouns once, is not at all the same as having people using the wrong pronouns ALL THE TIME. Our dysphoria is not less important than binary peoples. There has to be a degree of understanding on both sides here.

  • Ruth Ruthless
    Ruth Ruthless 2 months ago +1

    I'm actually a binary trans woman, yet I would actually be in favor of dismantling gender to a degree if that were an option. I've been working so hard to pass as a woman and failing, that my gender feels to me almost as much a burden on me as my assigned gender.
    I also live in Israel, where Hebrew is the spoken language and gender pronouns are so prevelant in the language, that bloody inanimate objects get gendered.
    I'm really, really sick and tired of it and am not seeing myself ever passing, still getting daily misgendered despite multiple surgeries, hormones, hair system to cover my baldness, voice feminization, make up, clothes, walking "the right way", moving "the right way", having to talk "the right way" - and STILL failing to pass so often.
    I am so tired of it, that as far as I'm concerned, I would prefer if languages had gender neutral pronouns, and that using them would be the default you do, and that gender pronouns would be optional/non-existant, and would be used only for people that you know want them and that you know which ones they want.
    That way if it were normal for everyone to use none gendered pronouns by default, me and other non-passing binary people wouldn't get misgendered. Non binary people would not get misgendered. Passing binary people would not get misgendered. We might get our gender confirmed a lot less often, but personally I think avoiding misgendering, avoiding gender dysphoria, is much more important than having gender euphoria... I can find other things to enjoy in life if my gender isn't constantly being brought to the forefront to be erased, and I would gladly sacrifice the cases where it is confirmed to lose the cases where it is erased.
    ...maybe some people still see gender as something that can make them happy, but I personally feel so effing jaded from gender that I am totally, totally sick of it and just wish I could live in a society where it just never came up by default, where it would have to be something people decide to talk about, among friends who recognize who I am, know who I am, and therefore will by default validate who I am...
    ...but I don't, every day I go out I get misgendered despite my best efforts to fit even into the binary, every day strangers erase my existence and I really really really wish I could just pay them no heed because they are strangers and shouldn't matter, but I just can't and maybe that makes me weak and maybe people will just say the problem is me and I should get therapy but I have had no success in therapy, it just makes me feel worse about how nothing is ever going to change for the better and I'm never going to find a way to feel better either.
    So please, pretty please with cherry on top, yes - let's make none gendered pronouns be the default for someone you don't know and make gendered pronouns optional or non-existant because I'm sick of misgendering being thrown in my face and erasing my existence every day I dare go out of my apartment or join voice chat on the internet or use a phone.

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      It sounds exhausting, Sending you love poppet xxxxxxxxx

  • Quinn J
    Quinn J 2 months ago +6

    This whole "oldschool transsexual" thing really rubs me the wrong way.
    Like you said, it would make no sense at all for her to refer to her age or how long she has been out, considering that she is still quite young (Yes, LGBTQIA+ elders exist, hold your horses) and has been out shorter than e.g. me, a trendy genderqueer 19-year old™ who was done socially, legally and medically transitioning before she even came out on youtube.
    So what makes her an "oldschool" then?
    The only thing that comes to my mind is her gender expression combined with the fact that she is a binary trans woman.
    She presents very feminine, uses she/her pronouns and seems to aim for being stealth.
    Which is amazing!
    But labelling that as "oldschool" completly ignores the fact that gnc transsexuals, gq/nb transsexuals and gq/nb gnc transsexuals have been around just as long as binary, gender conforming transsexuals.
    We were just ignored in LGBTQIA+ history thanks to respectability politics (or murdered *coughs*)
    Being gq/nb and/or gnc is not a new phenomenon.

    • Quinn J
      Quinn J 2 months ago

      @Ockerlord I don't think that she is downright gq/nb-phobic.
      But I really don't know what she wanted to imply. This is the only thing that comes to my mind.

    • Ockerlord
      Ockerlord 2 months ago

      ruclip.com/video/EdvM_pRfuFM/video.html 10:42 - 11:30
      That nb is not a trend was discussed on her channel.

  • Cai Saint Logan
    Cai Saint Logan 2 months ago

    Very lovely video.

  • kittyberry
    kittyberry 2 months ago +5

    Crazy how people in the queer community are so quick to tear each other apart over any perceived slight.

    • Tristan Tries
      Tristan Tries 2 months ago +2

      @kittyberry what you meant was pretty obvs imo. Tabitha went around and commented on like everyones comments that weren't just like saying "i agree with this video 100%" . so no worries you were clear

    • kittyberry
      kittyberry 2 months ago +3

      @Tristan Tries Yeah, that was my goal.i didn't watch the entire video because it was 40+ minutes and I liked the points Theo covered in the first 20. I don't like how the LGBTQ* community cancels one of their own for the slightest perceived infraction.

    • Tristan Tries
      Tristan Tries 2 months ago +4

      @tabitha stewart yo wait this person might be just talking about the situation and twitter mob not Theo or their video. Many people just comment on the situation its not just about this person in this video

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      Crazy how people comment on videos they obviously haven’t watched and make themselves look pretty damn silly Xx

  • Bryan
    Bryan 2 months ago +1

    Devouring itself and yet getting stonger. Reactionaries head for the exits.

  • Ro-Ck-Yo!!!
    Ro-Ck-Yo!!! 2 months ago

    Performative wokeness is a problem in the trans community. Why can’t we just freaking abolish gender as a concept already and get this crap over with?

  • Tristan Tries
    Tristan Tries 2 months ago +2

    I don't think she would have tweeted anything that came across as phobic if Twitter didn't react to her talking about a necessary thing that gives her dysphoria in such a hostile way. She became flustered under the attack. her egregious mistake was thinking that people would be able to understand its her personal experience and pain with dysphoria and react with empathy and understanding. her initial statement didn't say anything wrong since it was only her own experience. This is a good example of people needing to pickt heir battles and initial outrage making things worse. There initially should have been no divide. Should have been just an "ah look it is a struggle for a number of people but its the only process we have right now that lets our non binary friends maintain their dignity and help wth their dysphoria, it sucks it can cause dysphoria among our binary friends too." Thats literally it. Its been so unfair she has been deemed the voice of all trans and queet folk when really the only thing people should expect her to talk about as an authority is her personal experience as a white binary transwoman. Thats it. This has been pretty frustrating.

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago +1

      Tristan Tries Thank you for amending pronouns, I think all the reasonable people in the community want to salvage this situation, understand each other’s POV and go back to making the world a safe place for all and stop getting sidetracked by attacking someone (contrapoints) that works hard at educating people and also suffers dysphoria if asked for pronouns in an insensitive and discriminatory way. I think Theo has done a great job of covering all the issues sensitively and it seems like you do to xx

    • Tristan Tries
      Tristan Tries 2 months ago +1

      @tabitha stewart i fixed my pronouns thanks for pointing out my mistake (genuine not sarcasm don't want any misunderstandings). Idk perhaps it was the way things were pointed out but it seemed more a pure criticism than understanding the issues she also faces. Like it kinda seemed still like sweeping binary trans peoples dysphoria and discomfort aside like NB issues are more important instead of really equal issues that we are trying to navigate. Starting the video by being like "its not about you" (when the pronoun discussion is about all trans peoples not just non binary) is just initially giving a feeling its negative and even as it went it on it still sounded like that. If you say you understood it to be the same as what i was saying plus more then great. I don't see the issue with me commenting necessarily.

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      Tristan Tries but Theo’s (they/them) video said the exact same thing, they are also sensitive to contrapoints feelings and understand that it can cause dysphoria to be asked for your pronouns, Theo is advocating healing the divide not perpetuating it xx

    • Tristan Tries
      Tristan Tries 2 months ago +2

      @tabitha stewart eh i watched their whole video and i think I'm more sympathetic to Contrapoints than they are. They gave all sides and arguements in their video but for their personal opinion it doesn't seem we are quite in agreement. So yeah i wrote mine out

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      So you wrote all this because you agree with Theo’s video ? Because it says that and more xx

  • itsnotup2u
    itsnotup2u 2 months ago +47

    she said it was a minor discomfort. We on the left need to stop destroying and cancelling each others voices and see that there are nuances to this conversation including the differing needs of binary and non-binary trans folk.

    • Tristan Tries
      Tristan Tries 2 months ago +3

      @tabitha stewart when you commented on my comment we seemed to have a fairly productive conversation. But now I'm seeing you comment on any comment that not just praising this video or just stating their own thoughts on the general situation and your not being that polite. Everyone has the right to comment their thoughts it doesn't matter if their perspective is given in the video or not. This person did not embarrass themselves one bit.

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago +1

      Watch the video, Theo says all that and more, watch it before you comment and then you can feel less of a tit, save your self embarrassment xx

  • ImaginaryMdA
    ImaginaryMdA 2 months ago +4

    I conclude from Natalie Wynn's video titled "Transtrenders" that when she uses the term "radicals" she is not referring to all non-binary people.
    Rather she is referring to a subsection of people, binary and non-binary, that are calling for her "cancellation".
    Case and point, the character she portrays called "Baltimore Maryland" is a non-radical, non-binary person.
    You state: "She also says that non-binary people are radicals, who want to completely dismantle the concept of gender." which I think is a misrepresentation of her position.
    There are absolutely people, NBphobes, who would agree with that statement, and that's a problem, but Natalie Wynn is not such a person.

  • d hirlinger
    d hirlinger 2 months ago +6

    No horse in this race, but i see a pattern in the comments, "you didn't watch the video or didn't watch the whole video etc." Maybe there is a reason, delivery, verboseness, unfocused, scattered, dense or just hard to follow. Check out your analytics, maybe you can see where people drop off. If people aren't finishing the video there's probably a reason.

    • Tristan Tries
      Tristan Tries 2 months ago +3

      I had the same issue i watched the entire thing and it did not come across the way the creator of this video intended. I received a comment from tabitha as well and we actually had a fairly constructive conversation. But every other comment where i have seen tabitha comment its been basically accusing people of not watching and saying they are embarrassing themselves which honestly is disapointing. It is possible for people to watch the video and not receive the same message as someone else. Delivery, tone, order of points and presentation DO matter. When i made a comment under someone else it seemed the creator just dismissed my thoughts on how it was presented as having a biase and not being sympathetic to NB peoples issues. It's coming across as this creator isn't really interested in any feed back that isn't 100% positive and thats fine as its their platform. All this just to say that i agree with OP here and thought their feedback was worthwhile.

    • d hirlinger
      d hirlinger 2 months ago +2

      @tabitha stewart My original comment was pretty harmless, & i clarified that I wasn't just being mean. End of story, would've been buried, until you interjected & started to (& continue to) make senseless assumptions. I never gave an opinion, didn't tell anyone what to do; a neutral suggestion. I have more than enough Ytube experience, already went over that. You're safe, not stalking you. After seeing one after another of your snarky comments I did a quick page search & your name came up an awful amount of times. Thats when I realized what I was dealing with. I had been patient with you, but you're not gonna bully me away from making a comment. If you think I was being condescending, I think you're projecting. If someone makes an assumption about you, and its wrong, wouldn't you set the record straight?

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      d hirlinger yeah, two things do annoy me, one, people commenting without watching which is very easy to work out and seems to be endemic and I would be embarrassed if I commented on something I haven’t watched and two) mansplaining, that’s when some random bloke turns up and starts telling someone what they have to do, no one asked them, no one cares about their opinions but here they are telling someone how to edit, and then when the person being told tries to politely say ‘thanks but no thanks’ the mansplainer becomes defensive, he (and it’s usually a he) can’t understand why no one wants his unsolicited opinion, the mansplainer has zero experience running a RUclip channel but thinks he knows more than someone who has a channel, funnily enough I think he is embarrassing himself too... I am not invested in our conversation d, so have fun trying to work out why I might be here distracting your and other irritants away from bothering people that are trying to present a moderate take on difficult topics, if you want to stalk me some more you will find me being nice to the youTubers who have made interesting work and polite but scathing to idiots that criticise without watching or being asked xx

    • d hirlinger
      d hirlinger 2 months ago +4

      @tabitha stewart yeah, i learned that someone named tabitha has accused several people of not watching the video (sounds familiar) and made like fifteen other pissy replys to comments on this video so far. Oh, and she likes to tell people they are embarrassing themselves a lot too. give me a break. xx

  • NC
    NC 2 months ago +3

    Oh god. You say that if you only ask the ONLY trans person in the room of their pronouns your not being inclusive because you would be assuming how trans people look. You just do not want to win @ life do you? Stay offended.

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      NC no one wants that poppet, manners is good death a bit permanent xx

    • NC
      NC 2 months ago +1

      @tabitha stewart I would rather kill myself!

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago +1

      NC excellent then we are both happy, btw if you ask everyone nicely for their pronouns you can find out about the asexual persons pronouns without making them feel uncomfortable? So you would be a less rude and ungracious host and more people might enjoy your party!! Yay xx

    • NC
      NC 2 months ago +1

      @tabitha stewart But looking at asexsual person, how am I supposed to know if their pronoun is her/he/they or what? I have to ask to know, I don't have to ask where it's obvious. You seem so self righteous, it hurts. I would never come to your lame ass party. :D

  • Psuke Bariah
    Psuke Bariah 2 months ago +19

    I find this controversy so...odd. I mean about Natalie in particular. She herself has undergone several different iterations, starting with her video "I'm Genderqueer" back before she decided to fully transition, and wherein she discusses a lot of these points. In a very edgy way, because that was what she did. And she discusses it in her "Transtrenders" as well, although from a very different angle. It has sometimes seemed to me, watching her videos in a binge, that she is still coming to terms with her gender identification and how she feels about it, and that's going to be messy.
    It's clear from earlier videos she doesn't think NB is a new thing the trendy teens are doing. I don't knpw why she would have said so, it may have been a passing thought based on a recent interaction. Or whatever, not a mindreader, just a watcher of all her videos in a rush, which gives an interesting perspective.

  • Siobhan Drown
    Siobhan Drown 2 months ago +4

    She knows it's more than important to have to ask for pronouns, she literally said her MINOR inconvenience of feeling uncomfortable. She knows it's more important to ask for pronouns for nb people, she was just saying it's something that feels slightly uncomfortable.

    • Siobhan Drown
      Siobhan Drown 2 months ago +1

      @Theo Hendrie yeah sorry, I didnt even mean to be disagreeing with you, I just meant it as a vehement agreement.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      That's actually one of the major points I make in the video so I don't really know who you're arguing with here...

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      If you watch the video Theo says that and lots of other interesting things- watch first comment later save embarrassment xx

  • Lottie Blix
    Lottie Blix 2 months ago

    Thank you for this! I have been slowly putting together a video response myself, would you mind if I reference your video? You brought up a couple of issues that I didn't even think of!

    • Lottie Blix
      Lottie Blix 2 months ago

      @Theo Hendrie Awesome! I'll let you know when I post it :)

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      That's absolutely fine, go for it!

    • Lottie Blix
      Lottie Blix 2 months ago

      Also HUGE thanks for the shoutout to cis-presenting enbies

  • djmattfox
    djmattfox 2 months ago +6

    Your example at 6:21 kinda kills your argument. Contra was talking about a super specific situation where asking around seems unnecessary and makes her feel like she doesn’t pass because cis women feel like they need to ask pronouns in every situation, just to make themselves feel woke. Just like you wouldn’t watch subtitles every time just you and your boyfriend just in case a deaf person were to show up. She clearly wasn’t saying you shouldn’t ask for pronouns in other situations (whether it’s right or not) and doing another Twitter freak out over someone who’s a standardbearer for the trans cause is idiotic.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +2

      I agree with her that it's unnecessary and performative in those cases though. I feel like you haven't seen the entire video yet because both the fact that she wasn't trying to speak on all situations and I discuss the difference between performative and non performative asking for pronouns (also making Natalie the "standardbearer isn't a good thing - making one person the voice for the whole community is a lot of pressure for one person to be under and is exactly what leads to this kind of backlash in the first place because we're expecting her to speak for and represent every trans person perfectly and that's never going to be possible).

  • Ravenseye95
    Ravenseye95 2 months ago +2

    I kinda have the feeling you're Ignorant on Natalie's different takes on being nb or genderqueer. In several of her old Videos she explains her view on gender as a social construct. Many things you accuse her of dismissing she tackled years ago.

    • Ravenseye95
      Ravenseye95 2 months ago +2

      @Theo Hendrie Please don't missunderstand me on this. I don't say she's perfect. I just believe that she doesn't deserve this level of animosity she's receiving right now. And the fact that she used to identify as nb might help her understand nb people better than any cis or even binary trans person.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago

      @Ravenseye95 Yes and apparently you didn't catch the "used to" part of that?? That is not the same as actually being nonbinary and does NOT mean that she understands our experiences - it means she understands the experience of thinking you were nonbinary and then realising you're not, which is an entirely different thing.
      Kindly stop arguing with me over my actual lived experiences. Natalie still doesn't get to speak for us and we can speak for ourselves. Also if you actually bothered to watch the video you're commenting on then you would see that I already said I don't believe it had malicious intent - that doesn't prevent it from being harmful though. You need to stop putting Natalie on a pedestal and insisting she can do no wrong because that's a big part of what led us here in the first place - she is not a voice for the whole trans community, she never asked to be that, and putting her in that position is a ridiculous amount of pressure. Putting her on that pedestal as a voice for everyone instead of letting her speak for herself is harmful for her and the whole community. And other trans people are allowed to say when she's hurt us, thanks.

    • Ravenseye95
      Ravenseye95 2 months ago +2

      @Theo Hendrie I would actually agree but I'm afraid you didn't catch she used to identify as nb. So I believe she speaks from experience.
      I understand that her actions might have negative consequences for nb people. But I seriously doubt any mallicious intent behind her actions. And belive her to be intelligent enough to think about her words before she speaks them.
      Now I don't always agree with the takes in her videos but I see her as my inspiration to engage with the lgbtq community in the first place.
      Through her I accepted my own identity.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago

      I don't think it's up to Natalie as a binary woman to speak for nonbinary people. I'm an actual nonbinary person and I'm telling you that some of the things she has done are dismissive or harmful whether she intended them to be or not.

  • STARPHASE
    STARPHASE 2 months ago +4

    There seems to be an issue among their own community, that if you don't share the EXACT thoughts and opinions as the majority, you get attacked. Not to mention it's a but contradictory. If everyone just went with the thoughts and opinions of the majority of ANY group, we wouldn't be very progressive, now would we?
    Even for those who disagree with contrapoints, it's out of line for them to go and attack her like this. It's a major problem within the leftist community in general.
    Stop attacking each other over these small differences. It halts progress, and makes us all look bad, and well, intolerant. The exact thing the left is trying to get rid of. They show far too much intolerance without their own community, and again, it makes them (us) look bad, and is the reason most people don't take use seriously. It just looks bad. Stop it.

    • tabitha stewart
      tabitha stewart 2 months ago

      STARPHASE yup, that’s pretty much what Theo is saying in this video xx

  • Alfrún Trollsdóttir
    Alfrún Trollsdóttir 2 months ago +2

    When I meet new people I just follow gendered forms they use: Polish has masculine and feminine grammar forms for adjectives and verbs. I have no idea how to approach adapting they/them variant (I have not talked yet with anyone that tries to incorporate this into spoken Polish), and when I had to decide what language I should use about myself (being genderfluid and feeling she/her and they/them depending on situations) I chose to stick with feminine forms. And as far as I know, using neutral forms on people (we have that language gender) is considered spiteful and dehumanising, because historically these forms are reserved for non-humans and does not apply in 1st and 2nd person.
    But on the other hand binary people are easy to figure out by asking a question about something you have to answer in past or future form, where the grammar shows speaker's gender.
    For me - I stopped to care about whether or not someone uses wrong grammar forms with me, unless I have a reason suspect they try to insult me. But that's mostly my experience, and I'm sure I just lucked out on this issue.

    • Alfrún Trollsdóttir
      Alfrún Trollsdóttir 2 months ago +1

      @Theo Hendrie It is. On the other hand I personally feel a distance from language in this context. In general statements Polish uses masculine forms, but word "osoba" (person) is feminine, so when you switch between two tactics you switch the grammar genders, so I noticed people don't pay attention to gender switches, as long as you don't put emphasis on it (because endings and pronouns are not particularly stressed).
      On the other hand, true story, 1st person masculine past endings are in the process of becoming more like the feminine (researchers suggest that is because Polish people are mostly around women before kindergarden, and then in schooling up to the high school, so it transfers)
      My point is, a language that uses so highly codified linguistic gender can be either really constricting for gender-nonconforming, or really liberating (once again, MY opinion based on MY experience), once you realise you can be treated like the gender you are regardless of the grammar.
      My religious community (pagans) don't have any problems when I show up and participate in male or both part of gender practices. The only one I don't participate in is male rite of passage, as I didn't go through it myself.
      But it may be also because the more "mystic" branches of different paganisms (and I know there is also ultra conservative pagans that will not want to do anything with a rainbow brigade) in Poland believe that being gender non-conforming is often an essential element for someone to have access to spiritual realm. They start with an assumption that since shamans and Scandinavian sidr practitioners often were androgynous, the modern one will also be. So my kind of person is just a little more visible variant of it for them.
      And it's hard to feel disforic when being stealth (both by presenting and being such a nonexistent type of person in people minds) is keeping you safe. We are currently targeted as "the evil ones" by both church and ruling party. To the point we are regarded as only slightly better than Russia.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +2

      I've met a couple of Polish nonbinary people who have really struggled with this! I think one chose to use the feminine form instead of the masculine that they'd grown up using, and one chose to use the neutral despite how dehumanising it seemed. It's such a complex position to be in!

  • Kat Welham
    Kat Welham 2 months ago +4

    This is a very nuanced take and I right one.

  • Something Something
    Something Something 2 months ago +7

    While I see why people were hurt by what she said, I still think that she should be allowed to feel upset by not being assumed to be a woman.
    She is, after all, trying to be perceived as a woman, and is probably pretty hurt when people 'clock' her, or don't think she's automatically a woman.
    It is more unfair for NB people in this scenario, since they aren't struggling with trying to be seen as a binary gender, but it's not hard to imagine how binary trans people struggle in this scenario.
    She simply wants to perfectly blend in with other cis women, to be called ma'am, miss, girl etc. If someone has to ask what her pronouns are, it tells her that she isn't totally passable as a woman, and that can be disheartening.
    She is, after all, a binary trans woman who has her own experiences and feelings, and she should be allowed to express them, even if it isn't totally and completely positive towards all groups of people.

    • Something Something
      Something Something 2 months ago +1

      @Theo Hendrie
      (Sorry for the late reply)
      I get you, I was just commenting my thoughts
      I get your point, but I find it difficult to confidently argue that some people should just 'suck it up' for the sake of others who have it far worse than you.
      On one hand, I agree, NB people need inclusive circles where their pronouns are acknowkedged, unlike passing binary trans people who have the luxury of being properly gendered the majority of the time.
      However, something feels wrong telling someone in Contra's position to just 'deal with it.'
      I'm not saying that these are your words exactly, but I've seen these points floating around.

    • Something Something
      Something Something 2 months ago +1

      @Beeble Brox
      Given the context of what I said, I think it's safe to assume that I didn't mean 'girl' as in a prepubescent girl, but in the social sense. "Hey girl!" as a greeting for example. You know, things that many people say in average conversation.
      I very rarely call someone a man or woman, it's typically dude or girl, but that's just my personality.

    • Beeble Brox
      Beeble Brox 2 months ago

      Yes, she is a trans WOMAN so No, she's long since past being accurately referred to with word "girl". A girl is a minor/child, NOT an Adult.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago

      I'm not sure if you watched the video but I covered absolutely all of this in the actual video, I'm very aware of why it would be difficult for a passing binary trans person - but there's a lot more to it than that!

  • tg72201
    tg72201 2 months ago +5

    99.9% of the time, you can guess somebody's gender right. If somebody assumes wrong, correct them. If you are making any effort to perform your gender, people will be able to guess yours right. If you aren't trying to pass and thus being misgendered isn't a sign that you are failing to pass, then why is it hurtful if somebody assumes the wrong thing?

    • tg72201
      tg72201 2 months ago +4

      Angela Lawter Anybody now who isn’t an asshole will gender somebody correctly as female if they think they look like a man but they are dressing and presenting female.
      And the 99.9% is a random number, but I think given how few trans people there are and how many trans people are obviously the gender they transitioned to, it’s not that far off.

    • Angela Lawter
      Angela Lawter 2 months ago

      No, you're speaking from ignorance. You can do everything you possibly can to signal your gender and if your body does not fit the norms for your preferred gender you will still get misgendered.

      And also, I would like to say that 99.9% sounds a little high even if you discount trans people. I've met lots of cis people who were difficult to "place" at first. From the woman with a full beard that I met while canvassing a local neighborhood, to the extremely androgynous Asian woman (?) at the cash register at the thrift store.

  • tg72201
    tg72201 2 months ago +9

    Why do people on the far left use the word "space" so much? Why not just "place?" It means the same thing and doesn't make you sound like a rich white woman on House Hunters International.

    • half.note
      half.note 2 months ago +7

      I was thinking about this today, actually. I think it's because "spaces" are not always a single/tangible location (or "place"). For example, an online trans forum. Mostly tho, it's just the lingo.
      Edit: Space and place don't mean the same thing, basically. I learned that in Human Geography class.

  • Jon Tipsword
    Jon Tipsword 2 months ago +1

    I’m really trying to understand this I have a loved one dealing with this and desperately try get a grip on a whole new view of the world. Couple points.
    1) in contra points didn’t she say that she wasn’t the spokesperson for non binary people as it didn’t effect her? I’m glad you addressed her being an unofficial spokesperson for the community but I fail to see where her explaining in her vlog what her personal experience is bad.
    Why I understand that to a non binary person it could be hurtful to me the thought of it being hurtful to a trans woman never occurred. Again I’m relatively new to inclusive spaces but these are topics I’ve never thought of.
    2). I really try but have problems understanding more then 3 genders. I get there are people that where born with genitalia that don’t match male or female. Medically there are different issues for the both males and females. While I completely am onboard for anyone having any gender identity they want the denial of biological gender confuses me. If x was born with a penis and dressed as a woman or feminine would they still not need to get checked for testicular and prostate cancer?
    This is the part I have trouble with while now baby x identifies as woman and that part I agree is socially driven. Medically she still has the issues as an adult male assuming no surgeries or HRT. So should I think of gender in two terms one medically and second more important self identifying or societal? With the real emphasis on self-identified gender as medically only really mattering to that person and their medical provider?
    If someone can share some links to channels or videos that explain this please link in comments.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +2

      @Jon Tipsword Always happy to help!

    • Jon Tipsword
      Jon Tipsword 2 months ago +1

      Theo Hendrie ty ty ty gender vs biological sex finally explained something I misunderstood!! Such a easy way to get it in 1 paragraph!

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +2

      I have a Trans 101 series on this channel that is for friends and family who want to be supportive but are very new to all this! It's awesome that you want to learn and it's okay that you're struggling to figure it out, no one is born knowing this stuff!
      Note: we often make a distinction between gender and biological sex. gender is the identity, sex is a combination of genitalia, reproductive organs, hormones, chromosomes and secondary sex characteristics (e.g. facial hair, breasts). So I am a nonbinary person who needs access to gyne healthcare as opposed to a different nonbinary person who might need different access!

  • E S
    E S 2 months ago +5

    The hyperwoke community eating itself. I'll get the popcorn.

  • Bomberfox
    Bomberfox 2 months ago +2

    The pronoun pins seem reasonable. I dont know about trans and NB specific spaces as I dont have the experience to comment much but I noticed pronoun pins have been introduced even at furry cons and I actually appreciate them.

    • Bomberfox
      Bomberfox 2 months ago +2

      @Theo Hendrie It personally helped me as I sometimes go as a male or female character and I worry about passing ^.^. I can imagine it will clear a lot of confusion for others that use different pronouns.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      That's awesome! Furries often seem to be ahead of the curve on this sort of thing, it's fantastic to see!

  • Kurt Perry
    Kurt Perry 2 months ago +4

    I do just want to point out that I take issue with your phrasing of her reaction to having to share pronouns as “an odd feeling”, to me it’s a questionable reinterpretation of causing a spike in dysmorphia.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago

      I'm slightly confused about what part of the video you're referring to because I talk about it causing dysphoria for her (and why it would do that) and how uncomfortable that is throughout!

  • Plymouthian ZR
    Plymouthian ZR 2 months ago +1

    "You guys" is used all the time as a collective noun for females, by females, regardless of whatever they were born as...please Natalie, pick your battles.
    P.S. The more the trans/nb community in-fights like this, the more ammunition you give to the "gender-critical" feminists. Jesus H Christ, don't make a big deal out of this in a way which slides the narrative in *their* "favor".

    • Angela Lawter
      Angela Lawter 2 months ago +1

      Zhou that was her point. She was bewildered by "woke" people who were "tripping over themselves" to *not* say "you guys"

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +1

      Yeah that's a big part of why I addressed this video towards the divide in the community! It's okay to critique each other to a degree but we need to be united against the real threats to us.

  • Dale Wilson
    Dale Wilson 2 months ago +7

    So he's an anecdote about myself that is oddly relevant: I'm a cis-man and I am not misgendered often, but I *am* often misnamed at restaurants and other services that vocally ask for the customer's name. "Dale" is far less common of a name than "Dave", or "Daniel", or the many other assumptions FoH workers make when I tell them my name. And as a response out of sheer annoyance, it's now my habit to introduce myself by spelling out my name. "Hi, I'm Dale. D-a-*L*-e." in order to completely remove the mis-naming issue.
    The point here is that the general population at large, is just lazy with *anything* relating to identities and would generally rather just make assumptions than ask for clarification. I believe this points to a future where even if NB gender is 100% accepted, people are still going to make assumptions and misgender NB people unless NB people take the initiative when introducing themselves (or we change language to be completely gender-neutral; not an unreasonable solution). Now, I called this "lazy" but the better way to look at it is as "communication efficiency". If someone asked me to clarify my name, I would spell it out anyways, so why bother waiting for the question? Same can be said for gender identity: you're going to specify if I ask, so why bother waiting for the question?
    Of course, the obvious (and important) difference here is that me taking this initiative with my name is 100% safe for me to do, which is unfortunately not always true for NB and other trans people today. Taking the initiative to ask others about their gender *is* a polite way to let someone know that you are not a bigot and want to be respectful of their identity. However, in this case we *still* run into the issue of "what if the other person is a dangerous bigot?" now also putting allies in a similarly dangerous position. It's an unfortunately tough nuance to work around.
    To wrap this all up: I do think it's great that queer spaces ask for gender identity on introduction in the effort to normalize the question. If we want to get to the point where people can take the initiative of declaring their gender on introduction, we do first need to create a social structure where the question is at least strongly implied on all introductions. Otherwise, everything I just said is basically irrelevant. I just wanted to point out that even in a *perfect* world, it's still going to a good idea to communicate "efficiently" in most circumstances.
    I hope this is good food for thought. Either way, I really liked the video and the nuanced discussion. (Also, Twitter is indeed unfair garbage.)

    • Dale Wilson
      Dale Wilson 2 months ago +3

      @Theo Hendrie: Of course! I'm always happy to help where I can to make people feel safer. NB people are absolutely are taking the initiative in my experience. Thank you for adding that context!
      My post ended up wordier than anticipated, but I just wanted to point out (as I am a huge language nerd) how there exist some barriers within the fundamental structure of our language even when asking for pronouns becomes completely normalized. In addition, there are social barriers to allies being able to ask about pronouns in many spaces for much of the same reasons that NB people often run into barriers when taking the initiative. Which is just another thing that makes this all harder to do on a wide scale.
      It's important that we normalize NB people, and help everyone feel safer and more welcome in our societies. One day, (hopefully sooner than later) none of that danger and exhaustion from consistent explanation will be there anymore, and we can talk more about fundamental structures of language (and how that interacts with context/assumption) like all the cool kids.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +4

      That is a good analogy but I think the context that you're missing is that nonbinary people often are already taking that initiative - I wear pronoun pins everywhere I go and introduce myself with both my name and pronouns. Making asking for pronouns the norm is more about making a nonbinary person feel safe and welcomed in that space - rather than me having to advocate so hard for myself (while not knowing what people's reactions might be, whether or not I'm going to have to explain how to use they pronouns and what nonbinary even means which is a lot of work or if it's even safe for me to be out!) I can know that these people already know what I am and are accepting of that.
      I do agree that people are in a way fundamentally lazy though and that it won't be easy to normalise such a thing. But it definitely makes me feel a lot safer and happier when some spaces do it!

  • mrbadguysan
    mrbadguysan 2 months ago +14

    I believe by "old school transsexual", Wynn is drawing a line between how transgender people, most likely trans women, according to her, used to seek to be as binary as possible, whereas now, according to her, younger trans people seem to be less concerned about having an unambiguous gender, and that she's more like the former.

    She seems to think that trans people of today seem to be more non-binary than trans people of the past, and that she is more akin to trans people of the past. It's not a matter of validity.

    • Beeble Brox
      Beeble Brox 2 months ago

      @Theo Hendrie Well, she's guilty of Ageism for sure. It seems to be a kind of "acceptable bigotry" on the part of some Millennials who, like their Boomer parents, were raised in a culture whose media SEEMED to have been built by and for them and no one else had ever done news music and fashion 😂😂 It created a monumentally narcissistic generation of people who went on to become equally narcissistic adults, so hang on to your hats because the ride, it winds up, actually DOESN'T get easier 😂 And if you think it takes guts at 21 to do the things you do, you ain't HALF the badass of some lady doing the same things but with a 65 year old body and brain! Now THAT'S Badass! 😝

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago

      @gogglespisano24 if you genuinely see this very calm video as being "rabid" then I worry for you honestly. And what you've just said was exactly my point - there is an implication of being more trans than nonbinary people in those words and that simply isn't true. I hate to break it to you but you're not more trans than us. Just a different experience of being trans. But thanks for proving my exact point about "old school transsexual" coming off as dismissive of nonbinary people!

    • mrbadguysan
      mrbadguysan 2 months ago +1

      @Theo Hendrie first and foremost, I fully accept that it is very hard for nonbinary to feel validated by society in general. I'm by no means dismissing your genuine problems associated with people's reaction to your gender simply because I don't experience it.
      However, I don't believe the statements and motivations you're attributing to Wynn actually come from her. I don't believe she is merely referring to the emergence of nonbinary people as a completely novel phenomenon; I believe she's referring to 20th and 21st century paradigms. She said as much in her Transtrenders video; most of your points seem to have been addressed there, near as I can tell.

    • Quinn J
      Quinn J 2 months ago +2

      The issue with this is that by doing so she invalidates both gq/nb trans people and gnc trans people who have lived long before she was even born.
      We have existed before the internet was invented and some countries accepted a third gender option.
      This is still feeding into the idea that until a certain point (depending on the point of view of the speaker usually between the 90s and late 2010s) trans people were all binary and gender conforming and suddenly they all were gq/nb and/or gnc.
      Which is not true.
      It also devides the trans community into "old guard" and "new guard", which is an issue.
      Especially because "oldschool transsexual" can very very easily turn into "original transsexual" or even "true transsexual".
      In pretty much every community or sub culture that I'm aware of that is devided into "old" and "new guard" the "old guard" is always seen at least a little bit more "original" and "true" and most of the time even "real" than the "new guard".
      This becomes even more ridiculous when you think about the fact that e.g. emo or goth actually developed at some point. So in some way there could be old school emos who either a. were around the time the community was founded or b. heavily identify with the way it was lived back then.
      But being trans wasn't invented at some point. You can't be an oldschool transsexual because we have no idea who the first trans person to exist was and how they lived their life.
      There is no oldschool way of being trans because trans people have always existed.

  • mrbadguysan
    mrbadguysan 2 months ago +10

    Cis dude here; not sure how helpful my take is, but here it is: I've never been to a space in which everyone was asked for their pronouns. If I had to guess, most people I interact with haven't ever taken part in a pronoun-circle (not sure if that's a pejorative or not), and some people I interact with are actively hostile to the idea. Pronoun Circles, from my non-experience, seem purely performative; I know the vast majority of cis people would only do it if there were people with seemingly ambiguous gender around.

    Just my opinion, but we might go further as a society by eliminating gendered pronouns in their entirety. As a cis dude, I don't take being referred to as "they" as an affront to my manhood.

    • Ernestine
      Ernestine 2 months ago +3

      I don’t see how they/them would be dehumanizing if it applied to everyone. Why should pronouns be tied to inner identity at all? I mean, imagine if we had already been using they/them all along, why would anyone instead want to pick gender as the part of their identity to start asserting through different pronouns? I would imagine the only reason gendered pronouns even came into existence as things to call *other* people is because it helps reinforce the idea that men and women should be given categorically different treatment. Which is probably not for the best.
      On the other hand, this might be a bit out there, but if people came up with brand new gendered first person singular pronouns, then you’d know what to call them as soon as they introduced themselves...

    • Angela Lawter
      Angela Lawter 2 months ago +2

      Pronoun circles aren't purely performative, at least not in theory. The point of having everyone introduce their pronouns is so that the non-passing people don't have to feel singled out. Personally, in my experience it doesn't really work that way (unless you have several non-passing people in the group) because if everyone else is passable then you'll feel singled out anyways, but it's a nice gesture.

    • Theo Hendrie
      Theo Hendrie  2 months ago +2

      A few people have suggested removing gendered pronouns entirely - while I understand where that suggestion comes from, I don't see it as a solution myself. I think that for many people that would be just as dehumanizing and just as much erasing their identity as usuing the wrong gendered pronoun. Also for me as a nonbinary person, I don't want the world to be completely gender neutral either, because that erases my identity as a nonbinary person with an androgynous gender - I just want there to be room for everyone. It might take a long long time to get there but I think it's worth aiming for (but your perspective as a cis dude is also welcomed here! When it comes to pronouns and gender it impacts everyone so I like to hear a range of experiences).

  • who the fook is that guy stevens

    Lol love seeing you guys eat each other it's great

  • Geena Da Silva
    Geena Da Silva 2 months ago +13

    there’s something way bigger than pronouns at stake here.
    you talk about “passing” but many of us are 100% open about being trans but would rather not go on about it every day. it’s a huge relief for me to get through a day without having to talk about trans issues...
    i am extremely frustrated at the increasing conflation of trans and queer. some people identify as both, but an awful lot DON’T. being trans does not automatically make one queer.
    when you say that one can’t assume gender, you are slightly wrong: people will ALWAYS assume gender due to signifiers of gender (notably secondary sex characteristics). even if non binary people would love a world where no one assumes the gender of the people they meet but i think that is wishing for the impossible because of the way humans interact.
    you also seem to think that society can be changed at a profound level in an absurdly unrealistic pace. societal change takes at least decades if not centuries. we have equal marriage but to imagine that we have overcome homophobia is just plain silly...
    “old school transsexual”.... i use that term about myself. i don’t use the term transgender at all because my transition was 100% motivated by body issues and had/has never had anything to do the societal attitudes that CN Lester articulated very clearly in their book Trans Like Me. when i read their book i become aware of a great dividing line between two camps of trans people and this, ahem, “controversy” just illustrates it.
    i am increasingly finding trans spaces distressingly oppressive to a certain type of trans person (very often trans women) due to the focus on the perspectives of only a certain type of trans person. this saddens me enormously because it is the road to the creation of what our enemies call a “trans ideology”, a narrow, prescriptive attitude to life.
    also, please can we not marginalise the most vulnerable of our people: poor, non white, often foreign trans women who find themselves turning to sex work to get by. i recognise the distress caused by people not acknowledging your non binary identity but is that truly comparable to the violent revulsion that many cis men feel when confronted with a trans woman who threatens their straight identity? for those of us who don’t live in a queer subculture, we face constant negotiations of seeing if male attention means they want to make out with us or if they’re about to attack us (it looks pretty similar...)
    my fundamental point is that all trans people should see that there’s an awful lot of diverse opinions amongst trans people and that’s a good thing. Natalie has been the closest to a trans person who actually represents me (of course i’m not in 100% agreement with her on everything) and i find it depressing as hell that she has to deal with blowback that i personally find grotesquely stupid.
    a final note about terminology... don’t say “a she” - that’s the moronic shapiro mistake. a pronoun is a word that replaces a noun and in doing so conveys LESS information.
    also... the term non binary... i think it’s a dreadful term. it says what a person isn’t but not what they actually are. this has two consequences. firstly, it confuses the hell out of cis people.(they’re not all horrible, but the bar has been set so unrealistically high that they are bound to fail...) secondly, identifying as what one isn’t or what one is against is really easy. it’s much harder to find a positive, affirmational attitude to oneself and the world. let’s have a world where gender is not a prison but let’s work towards it and not childishly demand it be brought into existence magically. obviously i’m not non binary so i don’t get to choose but the term has always struck me as really inadequate for the people i’ve met.
    i have avoided using the term “trans community” because i don’t think there is one. there appears to be a queer community and even perhaps a non binary one but for me each experience of a trans space makes me feel more and more of an outsider. i’m sure my words won’t make the slightest bit of difference but i had to try...
    apology for the long comment.